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Old 10-23-2008, 08:57 AM   #1
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Heterosexuality and Homosexuality

I thought this would be an appropriate venue for a discussion on Homosexuality and Heterosexuality.

I'm a firm believer of the Kinsey Scale. For those of you unfamiliar:

Quote:
Males do not represent two discrete populations, heterosexual and homosexual. The world is not to be divided into sheep and goats. It is a fundamental of taxonomy that nature rarely deals with discrete categories... The living world is a continuum in each and every one of its aspects.

While emphasising the continuity of the gradations between exclusively heterosexual and exclusively homosexual histories, it has seemed desirable to develop some sort of classification which could be based on the relative amounts of heterosexual and homosexual experience or response in each history... An individual may be assigned a position on this scale, for each period in his life.... A seven-point scale comes nearer to showing the many gradations that actually exist." (Kinsey, et al. (1948). pp. 639, 656)

The Kinsey scale basically is a scale from 0 to 6. 0 being completely straight and 6 being completely homosexual.

0 Exclusively heterosexual
1 Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2 Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3 Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4 Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5 Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6 Exclusively homosexual


The most interesting thing about the Kinsey scale to me is the term "incidentally homosexual". Which is interesting because he wrote his first book on sexuality in 1948 describing incidental homosexuality and even then, although far more taboo to talk about, it seemed to be equally as prevalent as it is today.

Thoughts?
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:11 AM   #2
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Meh. Either you do the deed or you're interested in it or you're disgusted by it. It's your choice.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:12 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by DJ Nathan V View Post
Meh. Either you do the deed or you're interested in it or you're disgusted by it. It's your choice.
Is it a choice?
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:13 AM   #4
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do you not believe that it's a choice? Do you believe that someone is born with the natural attraction either towards the same sex or opposite sex?
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:23 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by dizzle View Post
do you not believe that it's a choice? Do you believe that someone is born with the natural attraction either towards the same sex or opposite sex?
I think it is not a choice for many. I've had many gay friends and/or acquaintances in the past, some of which had families that disowned them because of it. Knowing them they would never have made that choice consciously. Can you choose who you're attracted to? I know I can't. If I could I'd say "I'm attracted to fat chicks" and I'd be set for life.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:33 AM   #6
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Is not the underlying reason for even existing...to procreate and further the species?
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:35 AM   #7
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Is not the underlying reason for even existing...to procreate and further the species?
Anyone who pretends to be able to answer that question is full of shit. But, I can tell what it's not. I don't think it's simply to procreate. If that were the case then why shouldn't anyone not capable of procreating just off themselves?
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:36 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by ODiE View Post
I think it is not a choice for many. I've had many gay friends and/or acquaintances in the past, some of which had families that disowned them because of it. Knowing them they would never have made that choice consciously. Can you choose who you're attracted to? I know I can't. If I could I'd say "I'm attracted to fat chicks" and I'd be set for life.
i can control who i'm attracted to. yes, fat chicks are attractive .. they give amazing blow jobs.

in a sense i agree with you, in a sense i don't.

i've got a fat dookie lingering in my booty right now so i can't really think clearly because i'm a little stuffed up, i'll get back to you this evening with a better answer.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:39 AM   #9
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Anyone who pretends to be able to answer that question is full of shit. But, I can tell what it's not. I don't think it's simply to procreate. If that were the case then why shouldn't anyone not capable of procreating just off themselves?
Offing themselves...is just natural selection taking place.

Humans seem to fight natural selection tooth and nail.

In the end, we're still animals, and animals procreate, whether they have the lifespan of a housefly, or that of a tortoise, they exist to procreate.

And when they're unable to, they don't off themselves, they just eventually pass.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:44 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by dizzle View Post
i can control who i'm attracted to. yes, fat chicks are attractive .. they give amazing blow jobs.

in a sense i agree with you, in a sense i don't.

i've got a fat dookie lingering in my booty right now so i can't really think clearly because i'm a little stuffed up, i'll get back to you this evening with a better answer.
I think you, me, people in general can pretend to choose who they're attracted to for sake of achieving a goal or purpose. In your example for some head. In other examples a whore can pretend who they're attracted to for money. In another, someone who is REALLY attracted to the same sex can pretend they're straight to maintain family ties, social standing, etc but really in many (again not all) cases your body makes the decision for you. I can be INTERESTED in like asian women, or brunette women, or something of that sort but ultimately what I'm really attracted to is completely subconscious. There's a big difference between attraction and interest.

What about love? Do you decide who you love? Can you decide to stop loving someone? To start?

I say no, I can pretend, I can SAY I love you Dizzle. But, that doesn't mean I do :P
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:51 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by epiphany View Post
they don't off themselves
So logically there must be a purpose, outside of offspring, to exist. If there was NO purpose to life if you did not then why live?
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:57 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ODiE View Post
Is it a choice?
Yup. I'll see if I can find the essay, I have it somewhere in my docs at home. It was written by a friend of mine who was living a homosexual life. Homosexuality is the result of the environment someone grows up in, as many things are. It has always been.

These days it is more common because it's more accepted, glamorized, and broadcasted. Some people will try to tell you that it's more common now because; "people know they can come out and be accepted where in years past they would be shunned." In reality, it's just so much more widely displayed and shown that you can find plenty of "gay" people who have never acted on it and use it as a way to get attention.

For example: 10 years ago you didn't find the percentage of 'bi' girls you do today. 10 years ago you didn't see girls making out in front of crowds (bars, clubs, events) like you do today. It's a great way to get attention and people use it.

If you don't think people act out like that to get attention as satisfaction look at how 'adult' dress has shifted in age so severely. It's not the 'rebel' 18 year olds that are dressing trashy to piss off their parents and show they're an adult anymore. You have 14 year olds walking around in skimpy clothing and flaunting their stuff for all it's worth. It's disgusting. What's even more disgusting is combining that with the over-hype of sex in our culture today and you've got a recipie for disaster. You've got guys who are 18-21+ sleeping with minors because the kids are out there dressing and (trying to) act like they're an adult. It's unreal how many men have had to fight in court over cases of statutory rape after a girl lies about her age. (PS: He's still a moron for not being sure of her age.)

Sex is over-hyped and homosexuality has been the last few years as well. Some use it just for attention while others choose it as an alternative lifestyle. I'll agree that the choice may have been a more or less blatant one for each person as everyone has a different path in life, but it is still a choice.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:58 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by ODiE View Post
What about love? Do you decide who you love? Can you decide to stop loving someone? To start?
Yes... but that's another thread.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 10:00 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ODiE View Post
So logically there must be a purpose, outside of offspring, to exist. If there was NO purpose to life if you did not then why live?
Logically, the purpose is to further the species. Offing themselves is actively destroying the species.

OTOH, maybe homosexuals exist as a part of natural selection, as a means of natural population control.

Or maybe DJNV is entirely correct, and some of us are looking forward to reading said essay.

Last edited by epiphany; 10-23-2008 at 10:03 AM.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 10:04 AM   #15
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Odie, thank you for posting something relevant and with a researched reference. Kinsey was discussed at length in a Ethics class I took in college.

On this subject I have to go from knowledge I have gained through life experience. I have a few gay friends, whom taught me some great lessons about life. When I was younger I struggled with my sexuality, I am sure that the copious amount of drug and alcohol abuse didn’t help my case any. The fact that I was molested by a neighbor boy when I was in the second grade did help my case (but those affects deserve their own thread). I also struggled with many of the stereotypes and opinions of what is considered masculine, such as football, being a logger, not showing emotion, and what is stereotypically feminine, such as being artistic, liking to shop, or sew, showing emotion, writing poetry. During a time of self discovering I was talking with a gay friend of mine about these things (he is a logger). What I came away from that conversation with is this….It does not matter at all what your interests are, the only thing that determines whether your heterosexual or homosexual is if you have sexual relations with the same sex.

On a side note another good friend of mine who is gay taught me that it is ok to be who I am and not be ashamed of who I am. I realized if this guy, who has obviously struggled with discrimination among other things is ok with who he is, why shouldn’t I be ok with who I am.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 12:27 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by epiphany View Post
.... and some of us are looking forward to reading said essay.
I'll be looking for this when I get home. I know he emailed it to me and I'm sure it's in one of my inboxes still if it's not in my document backup. It was a great read, though, if I can find it.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 04:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiphany View Post
Logically, the purpose is to further the species. Offing themselves is actively destroying the species.

OTOH, maybe homosexuals exist as a part of natural selection, as a means of natural population control.

Or maybe DJNV is entirely correct, and some of us are looking forward to reading said essay.
I agree with you.

Of course, for humans, procreating isn't our ONLY meaning in life..just as with any other animal...most of them are necessary in one way or another for an ecological system to keep in check.

If you have ever studied any kind of biology or ecology, you will find that EVERYTHING that is alive has a MAIN (not only) purpose: to pass on their genes. Some plants and animals go to insane measures to ensure this. Look into it if you don't believe me.

But, on topic...I believe being homosexual is not a choice. Your essay that you are referrencing, Nathan, is one essay/research project (although it sounds mainly subjective), and there are countless more like it. There are also countless more essays/research on why homosexuality is believed to be something you're born with.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 05:07 PM   #18
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Your essay that you are referrencing, Nathan, is one essay/research project (although it sounds mainly subjective), and there are countless more like it. There are also countless more essays/research on why homosexuality is believed to be something you're born with.
Not my essay... was written from a first-hand experience of a friend. Ugh, I have GOT to find that thing. When I get home I'll be looking.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 09:29 PM   #19
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so wait wait wait, if what you're saying is true, no matter how hard i try, i can't be gay? Because i'm physically and emotionally attracted to women?

fuck, guess there goes my hopes and dreams of having the gay man physique.
 
Old 10-24-2008, 08:01 AM   #20
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Not my essay... was written from a first-hand experience of a friend. Ugh, I have GOT to find that thing. When I get home I'll be looking.
No, I know it's not written by you...I was just saying, "your" as in the one you're referrencing

I would like to read it if you can find it!
 
Old 10-24-2008, 07:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by DJ Nathan V View Post
For example: 10 years ago you didn't find the percentage of 'bi' girls you do today. 10 years ago you didn't see girls making out in front of crowds (bars, clubs, events) like you do today. It's a great way to get attention and people use it.
Yes you did. Those people aren't really gay, or bi, they're just doing it for attention. The definition of gay is being sexually attracted to the opposite sex. People are entirely capable of making out with the same sex at party
s for laughs and/or attention. They are not gay. Kinsey did his research in the 1940's. There was just as prevalent homosexuality then but it was just cliche to speak about it and WIDELY much more frowned upon. As you said it is more acceptable now but that doesn't create more homosexuals that just makes the people who are more forthright about it.

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Yup. It is a choice
Quote:
During the 1990's evidence was found that a gene could be the root cause of homosexuality. It was thought that the X chromosome, which is passed from the mother to the son, carried the variability that accounted for becoming gay. More recently, both the X and Y chromosomes have been investigated to determine the causes of homosexuality. The Y chromosome is passed from the father to the son and it is this Y chromosome that determined the sex of the baby. All of these studies have been successful to the extent that they have found genetic factors to be the cause of homosexuality in fifty to sixty percent of the populations studied.
And no, it isn't. It's a genetic predisposition MOST OFTEN. Do you choose your genetics?

Last edited by ODiE; 10-24-2008 at 07:38 PM.
 
Old 10-25-2008, 07:31 AM   #22
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Not my essay... was written from a first-hand experience of a friend. Ugh, I have GOT to find that thing. When I get home I'll be looking.
I've been holding off on replying until the actual essay is posted. It's presented as fact, but I see a whole lot of opinion... that I disagree with.
 
Old 10-26-2008, 12:26 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by ODiE View Post
"During the 1990's evidence was found that a gene could be the root cause of homosexuality. It was thought that the X chromosome, which is passed from the mother to the son, carried the variability that accounted for becoming gay. More recently, both the X and Y chromosomes have been investigated to determine the causes of homosexuality. The Y chromosome is passed from the father to the son and it is this Y chromosome that determined the sex of the baby. All of these studies have been successful to the extent that they have found genetic factors to be the cause of homosexuality in fifty to sixty percent of the populations studied."

And no, it isn't. It's a genetic predisposition MOST OFTEN. Do you choose your genetics?
So basically there's a 1/2 a chance that your "proof" has any validity. I think there's more hard evidence that god exists.
 
Old 10-26-2008, 12:49 AM   #24
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So basically there's a 1/2 a chance that your "proof" has any validity. I think there's more hard evidence that god exists.
No matter how many words you so dramatically highlight in red, you can't deny that at least for some (approx 50-60 percent based on most studies) genetics dictates sexual preference.

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Originally Posted by epiphany View Post
I think there's more hard evidence that god exists.
I doubt that very much. I'd say post it but that's an entirely different much more subjective discussion not for this thread, or even this forum really unless you want to take it to off topic.

Last edited by ODiE; 10-26-2008 at 12:51 AM.
 
Old 10-26-2008, 10:35 AM   #25
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No matter how many words you so dramatically highlight in red, you can't deny that at least for some (approx 50-60 percent based on most studies) genetics dictates sexual preference.



I doubt that very much. I'd say post it but that's an entirely different much more subjective discussion not for this thread, or even this forum really unless you want to take it to off topic.
Highlighted in red or not, studies can all be tweaked to output the highest probability and favorable results. Most any information can be tweaked to produce favorable results...or spin it to their liking. I've seen studies that proved more lampposts = more crime, and studies that proved beauty is directly proportional to intelligence. Not to say these studies are useful, or even believable, but they have evidence and statistics behind them as well.
 
Old 10-26-2008, 08:26 PM   #26
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Well what are you bringing to the discussion aside from opinion?
 
Old 10-27-2008, 02:50 PM   #27
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The gay culture war is about to turn chemical. - By William Saletan - Slate Magazine

Unfortunately the most either of us can bring is opinion, any "studies" either of us produce will not be conclusive.

In the end this is akin to arguing over whether god exists or not...fruitless

Say I post this:

The Importance of Twin Studies

Containing this:

"Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual."

Which directly disproves that it's genetic...

Anyhow...this "Born that way" Theory - Is Homosexuality Genetic? has some interesting reading.
 
Old 10-27-2008, 02:57 PM   #28
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Still looking. It's in my backup somewhere. :(
 
Old 10-27-2008, 03:46 PM   #29
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Anyhow...this "Born that way" Theory - Is Homosexuality Genetic? has some interesting reading.
38% is a higher than average instance of homosexuality so I would say that proves my point which is GENETICS PLAY A ROLE or at the very least suggests that there is a predisposition to homosexuality. I did not ever say genetics were solely responsible for homosexuality. If I haven't said so already, I will say now I'm sure many people choose to be homosexuality but I believe MOST do not. From the very same article you posted

Quote:
many researchers hypothesize that a homosexual orientation stems from a combination of biological and environmental factors.
The way that this article is written also seems a bit bias in how it presents this information... Also upon further investigation that organization seems like one of those religious nutjob organizations that think they can "cure" gay.

OH WAIT! That's because it is!

Quote:
NARTH is a secular organization and does not use the Bible as justification for its positions. Nevertheless, NARTH often partners with religious organizations at ex-gay and conversion therapy events. Nicolosi is a consistent speaker at Focus on the Family's ex-gay Love Won Out conferences.
Quote:
Focus on the Family (FOTF, or FotF) is an American evangelical group. The non-profit organization was founded in 1977 by Dr. James Dobson, and is based in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Focus on the Family is one of a number of evangelical parachurch organizations that rose to prominence in the last decade. A major component of the American Christian right, it is active in promoting interdenominational work for a social conservative public policy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by narth.com
We respect the right of all individuals to choose their own destiny. NARTH is a professional, scientific organization that offers hope to those who struggle with unwanted homosexuality.

Last edited by ODiE; 10-27-2008 at 03:53 PM.
 
Old 10-28-2008, 07:30 AM   #30
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Not surprising that it is, for the most part studies to prove that homosexuality is chosen will be religious, and science will strive to prove that it's genetic. Sadly neither of us can truly ever PROVE our point, as there is no hard evidence to prove either.

And the wheel goes 'round...



However we've gone completely off point from the Kinsey scale...

On another sidebar, would you really want homosexuality to be proven genetic? Think of the implications, of the tweaking of genes before birth to turn it on or turn it off. Would proving it genetic completely wipe it out? Or is homosexuality a necessary existence in society, and if so what part does it truly fulfill?

Sidebar #2: Science has "proven" being a jerk isn't the person's fault: Bad behaviour 'blamed on genes' - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Last edited by epiphany; 10-28-2008 at 09:24 AM.
 
Old 07-27-2009, 10:50 PM   #31
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Namby pampy set of scale doesnt even address the full spectrum of it.
What if you are not having sex, homo or hetro.... theres no nice lil niche for that on the Kinsey scale.
And I am sure he was not the first to identify categorize and document L.u.g.s. (Lesbians Until Graduation) So really, hes just some blow hard that wrote a lil paper > not like he discovered gravity.
 
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